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Galactic Overlord The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen	Posted - 2008.05.22 14:55:00 - [1] The single best "fix" for can flipping is simply a longer aggression timer. 15 minutes is frankly a laughable "penalty" for stealing. Extending this timer leaves all other game mechanics in place, but increases the risk for the thief to be inline with the spirit of EVE, which is supposed to be harsh. Can flippers should have to watch their backs for a decent amount of time after flipping cans rather then just dock up for 15 minutes, basically getting away scot free. For those can flippers that claim to do it for the PVP (most of them), this of course shouldn't be a problem. Only those that want to make easy money with no effort get penalized, this is EVE where everything is supposed to be risk vs reward.
Galactic Overlord The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen	Posted - 2008.05.22 15:05:00 - [2] Originally by: Shenko Minara Originally by: Piitaq ~words~ Aside from the derision this point of view should and does receive, you're missing the point of jatcan mining. It's an unintended feature that hasn't been programmed out since the devs have yet to come up with a viable alternative. Besides, people that aren't farmers and mine in gangs are often in different corps and share the same can. Would you sacrifice them so you can suck your veldspar for twelve hours a day without interruption? I agree with you, but add the additional point that I think getting a hauler full of ore for free every 15 minutes with no effort or actual penalty is even more of an unintended mechanic. And please no worthless rebuttals like "Well you should have multiple corp members protecting your one miner" and other ridiculous responses. The truth is, its free money with no penalty which is not at all inline with EVE's core gameplay.
Galactic Overlord The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen	Posted - 2008.05.22 15:23:00 - [3] Edited by: Galactic Overlord on 22/05/2008 15:26:51 Worthless rebuttals as in answers that haven't actually had any thought put into them. Please explain the risk vs reward in can flipping, compared to all other avenues of making isk in game. Also make sure to cover how can flipping simply takes one person with a properly fit ship, same as ratting or most other things, however its proposed that a corporation waste valuable member time and resources to simply guard a miner in empire, which isn't very lucrative in the first place. And what about those that haven't joined a corp and don't wish to? You don't need these extra "guards" to make money ratting, running missions, etc. When you add in how hard it is to make money mining compared to other avenues, it makes it even more ridiculous. The simple truth is that can flipping is broken heavily in favor of the thief, giving the miner an almost impossible window of time in which to retaliate. For the record even though it shouldn't be necessary, I'm not a carebear miner whining that can flipping needs to be stopped. If that timer were extended to any meaningful length of time then it simply means the flipper has to be more careful and actually have some risk, while also giving the "victim" more time to exact revenge. They can still flip cans to their hearts content, however they now have to worry more about potential people waiting for them meaning they will have to choose more carefully who they flip and even consider moving around various systems. The more cans they flip in a short time, the more dangerous it gets. Risk vs reward.
Galactic Overlord The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:05:00 - [4] Edited by: Galactic Overlord on 22/05/2008 16:06:28 Originally by: Divad Ginleek The fun way to deal with can flippers is to have a corp mate in a PVP fitted ::insert name of preferred ferocious killing machine here:: waiting beside you cloaked. 3 day old character in a frigate flips you can, you target and scram them while your buddy uncloaks and turns them to space dust. fastest way to turn "tough PVPers" into "whiny carebears" I know of. One thing I'm not sure of is how "unintended" jet can mining is. Its funny that a full jetcan holds just about as much as a maxed iteron V. Seems tailor made for corp/alliance mining ops, if you ask me. Still, like everything else. if you jetcan mine in a 1.0 system by the newb station you were "born" in, with 120 people in local, your BEGGING to be flipped. find some backwater system with 1-5 people in local and have at it. Also, to the OP, and anyone else whining about can flipping... roll a PVP alt and go do it yourself. its quite fun . Always best to see issues from both perspectives before passing judgment. However fun it may be, you can't require a miner to have one or more guards sitting around doing nothing except guarding for hours on end in case a flipper happens along. It's just not realistic. Sure maybe if they were mining something incredibly profitable, which they aren't. Telling a miner to do something else is also not a fix, and neither is mining elsewhere because that only increases the difficulty of getting your ore back to where you do manufacturing. And no matter where they go, the mechanic is still the same. I've been on both sides, which is why I see this mechanic is horribly broken. Is this going to just turn into another uselessly spammed topic where people don't actually look at the problem and just give canned responses?
Galactic Overlord The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:08:00 - [5] Originally by: Paaaulo CCP have said themselves jetcan mining was never intended to be done. Best way to combat ore stealing is just get a friend/alt in a hauler to pick up the ore as soon as its dropped into the can. Problem solved. How about anyone that wants to rat be required to have a friend/alt along with them otherwise they cant get any ratting done? How about we just fix a broken mechanic instead of forcing people to buy additional accounts or have to wait on gathering a group of people for something that should easily be a solo method of making isk.
Galactic Overlord The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:21:00 - [6] Originally by: Olly210 Originally by: Galactic Overlord Originally by: Paaaulo CCP have said themselves jetcan mining was never intended to be done. Best way to combat ore stealing is just get a friend/alt in a hauler to pick up the ore as soon as its dropped into the can. Problem solved. How about anyone that wants to rat be required to have a friend/alt along with them otherwise they cant get any ratting done? How about we just fix a broken mechanic instead of forcing people to buy additional accounts or have to wait on gathering a group of people for something that should easily be a solo method of making isk. its simple, if you dont want to jet your stuff, you dock every time your full. ROCKET SCIENCE This is true, however also a ridiculous requirement. Might as well force people to dock up after ratting x amount of rats. It's an unnecessary requirement. How about instead of dropping canned responses, someone actually points out a flaw in the increased aggression timer?
Galactic Overlord The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:23:00 - [7] Originally by: Shenko Minara If what you are mining is valuable enough to be stolen, it is valuable enough to be guarded. It's that simple. Don't want guards? Fine, take the risk. There's your risk vs. reward. And you can't compare ratting against mining, it's apples and oranges. You also can't include production, or invention, or exploration, or scamming, or market trading in your comparison. You can compare isk made per hour, and that places mining squarely at the bottom by a long shot. Which I'd think everyone would want changed because this means lower costs for everything. Imagine a world where t2 ships actually don't *****your wallet because you can't fully insure the cost of them. How that for a broken game mechanic?
Galactic Overlord The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:26:00 - [8] Originally by: Zaporozh Didnt realize can flipping was such an issue. I've been mining for almost 3 years in this game without one can flipped. I think some people need to explore a bit and move out of those crazy populated systems : ) I actually don't have any problems with can flippers since I haven't mined in highsec in forever. However this doesn't change the fact that I can objectively see it's an issue. I've seen can flipping happening nonstop all over EVE and whether or not you haven't seen it doesn't make it nonexistent.
Galactic Overlord The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:40:00 - [9] Once again what about an increased aggression timer? Nobody wants to touch this because it actually makes sense or what? I know its more fun to make fun of miners and all. I feel the need to explicitly state for those that aren't actually reading, this increased aggression timer would be to motivate miners to retaliate. It's in no way protection for miners, it simply adds more risk to completely risk-free isk making.
Galactic Overlord The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen	Posted - 2008.05.22 17:11:00 - [10] Originally by: Shenko Minara If you really want to compare ratting to mining on ISK income, then how about this? I have a high-skilled hulk alt and occaisionally mine arkonor with it and can pull in about 60mil ISK per hour. I can do more with a mind-linked gangboss in system as well. Also, I don't get can-flipped because it's out in the ass-end of 0.0. You mine in high-sec and struggle to push your income into the millions per hour and you get hassled by can-flippers. It's not a broken system per-se, it's just a linear scale of reward and you aren't putting in the effort. Let's leave this comparison to empire only, since can flippers only work in empire. We can reduce it even more to highsec only since thats where the flippers work almost 90% of the time. Why? Because there's no risk. Now consider how horrible your income is from mining in highsec while adding in the fact that you can mine for an hour and lose it all in a second to someone that has taken no risk. So far pretty much every response requires something else to be added to the equation. The last line in your response is completely laughable because its the flippers that are putting in no effort and getting an amazing scale of reward FOR FREE. No special training, no actual PVP ability, its just free free free. They need some risk.
Galactic Overlord The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen	Posted - 2008.05.22 17:21:00 - [11] Originally by: Paaaulo Its not a broken mechanic if jet can mining was never intended. So let's imagine an EVE where nobody jetcan mines. Let's imagine what ship/module supplies would be like as well as prices. Not let's get back to reality and once again someone tell me what's wrong with increasing the aggression timer. Everyone wants to protect the guy making money for free without reward. Why is that? I know carebears tend to whine nonstop and want it all their way and we are mostly sick of it. But that's not what I'm suggesting here, I'm promoting PVP for those carebears and no more free lunch for the sad people that think they are actually PVPing. This isn't even pirating, its pathetic.
Galactic Overlord The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen	Posted - 2008.05.22 17:29:00 - [12] Well I can see this has degenerated once more into simple carebear bashing without need for logic or sensibility. If you aren't going to take the time to actually objectively look at the issue, there's no point in debating it. Not a single response has touched on why it would be bad to increase the aggression timer, so I guess the uber PVP can flippers win the day again.
Galactic Overlord The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen	Posted - 2008.05.22 17:41:00 - [13] Originally by: Sally Bestonge Originally by: Galactic Overlord Well I can see this has degenerated once more into simple carebear bashing without need for logic or sensibility. If you aren't going to take the time to actually objectively look at the issue, there's no point in debating it. Not a single response has touched on why it would be bad to increase the aggression timer, so I guess the uber PVP can flippers win the day again. its pointless for the police to blow you up on sight because you are storing something in an unsecure container and you just feel like you shouldn't have to secure it suck it up and use GSC's. I don't know what you are talking about. Try reading.
Galactic Overlord The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen	Posted - 2008.05.22 20:29:00 - [14] I can see that I probably would have to start another thread since what I'm recommending is apparently really difficult to distinguish from the OP (it's not). However I hate to do that since this issue doesn't affect me in any way, so I'll try one last time to spell it out in this thread already covering can flipping. Also some of you don't seem to know the way can flipping aggression works, so I'll be thorough. Present day: 1. Someone mines into a jetcan same as 99.9% of eve miners do (since this is the only way to do it and actually make more then .1 isk an hour). 2. Someone steals ore from the can initiating a 15 minute timer where the "victim" AND his entire corporation can attack you, which sounds good in theory but in reality means basically nothing. 3. If I want to steal some ore all I have to do is stab up a hauler, align on the other side of the can towards station, scoop the ore and initiate warp immediately, guarantying I get away with it 99.9% of the time. Lag is my only fear and I just "earned" an entire hauler full of ore in seconds without risk. 4. I stay docked for 15 minutes in complete safety till the timer runs out, and then I do it again. 5. The miner has no ability to retaliate or protect themselves unless I am a complete idiot and want to sit in a belt and wait for them to come back in a PVP ship or unless I waste my friends time and force them to sit next to me for hours while I mine. Proposed BALANCE (note this is not a "fix" or a "change"): 1. Leave all can flipping game mechanics the way they are EXCEPT increase the aggression timer from 15 minutes to something that causes the flipper to be at risk for a longer period of time. Doesn't have to be a big change, maybe even 30 minutes is enough. This means if I decide to flip a lot of cans in one system, I'd better watch my back very carefully, but its proportion to the amount of free isk I just scooped from lots of miners. This gives the miner longer to retaliate, or for the "sad pirate-wannabe can flippers" it forces them to sit in station cowering for a longer period of time, wasting their time if they are too afraid to fight. Let's be honest. For those that use can flipping to goad a miner into PVP, having an increased can aggression timer will mean nothing and doesn't change the game for them at all (and I have no problem with this can flipping). This will only penalize those that are getting a free ride and in my opinion abusing the can flipping system that CCP put in place to give miners a chance to fight back. 15 minutes is just not enough time or penalty.
Galactic Overlord The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen	Posted - 2008.05.23 08:51:00 - [15] I applaud how you all have been able to take lack of reading comprehension to a new level.

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